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General Discussion => The Elegant Whale => Topic started by: corduroy on March 18, 2019, 02:40:40 PM

Title: pewdiepie
Post by: corduroy on March 18, 2019, 02:40:40 PM
anyone have opinions to share on this?

id start but the whole thing is frustrating to me. I dont care about him but calling him a nazi is flat out inaccurate and ruins any arguments in the eyes of actual nazis, bigots

edit: i know its dumb to talk about this guy after a shooting where people died but besides that i think the misinformation and ganghating upsets me the most and it almost makes me wish I was on the wrong page about this. A lot of friends and people I respected are coming out to suggest that some dumbfuck youtuber is even comparable to the atrocities of nazis like what the fuck even to focus on him instead of the victims, or instead of the shooter, or instead of ben shapiro is like insane to me

and jus tto keep amending ths post because its clearly upsetting me, I realize the issue is 'online radicalization' or whatever the fuck that means but Outright Lying about someones position delegitimizes your stance to the people whos actions actually matter. And suggesting a youtuber has anything to do with this is suggesting the shooter had no involvement in his own actions. it was his fault, his fault alone and the internet is a great place to find tools to radicalize yourself, but just like anything else, its a choice you make. No one tricked him into shooting up a fucking church not even Shapiro and his race hating propaganda.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: Wesker on March 18, 2019, 03:34:14 PM
He's not a Nazi, but he panders to them, doesn't acknowledge that they're a part of his fanbase (look at his videos which have a lot of racist comments on them), and I think it's fair to say that he enables them in order to keep them placated so that they keep watching his videos, keep subscribing, so that he can keep making money.

For what it's worth, most of the people on BreadTube are not blaming PewDiePie for this and they don't actually think he's a Nazi for the most part. The top post on there from the last day is one from H. Bomberguy saying that PewDiePie is not responsible for the shootings, which is to say that he's not a Nazi. What people like Harris and BreadTube in general think is that people like PewDiePie reinforcing racism through "edgy memes" contributes to this culture, and that he should be held responsible or take responsibility for engaging in it the way he has.

The issue isn't that he was "tricked". He probably believed these evil things before he went and killed 50 people. But part of being radicalised is finding people who validate your racist and violent beliefs. Ben Shapiro is absolutely responsible for making these people feel validated. It's not a "trick". It's just an ideological tactic in order to stir anti-muslim sentiment, which he has done for years. Ben has literally said that he doesn't care about the victims of war in the middle east. He's literally said that "Arabs love to bomb crap and live in open sewage". He's literally said that the majority of muslims are radicals. These are all things that contribute to people feeling validated in their hatred for muslims, and it reinforces the idea that taking preemptive measures against them is justifiable. When you spread hateful, racist lies about a group of people, you're responsible for the narrative that views them as worthy of destruction. Ben himself believes this, because he understands that the Holocaust received public support as a result of propaganda campaigns, which allowed citizens to feel more and more at ease with selling out their Jewish neighbours and turning them in. Propagandists didn't "force" people to do this. Just like Ben Shapiro isn't "forcing" people like the New Zealand shooter to carry out violence. But Shapiro is encouraging it implicitly by dehumanising muslims and painting them broadly as violent or radical.

Everything is connected and everything is political. If PewDiePie really cares about this, then he'll make a video calling out all of the people in his audience who think this sort of shit, but I don't think he'll do that because he knows that it's going to be an unpopular move, it's going to piss people off, and it's going to hurt him at least a little financially.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: corduroy on March 18, 2019, 04:48:16 PM
He doesnt pander to just Nazis, he panders to everyone. Writing that flat out makes me realize how short sided my argument of this is, however even something as small as that has huge impacts when you want to make a statement towards terrible behavior. Its like Im arguing a super unsubstantial issue, but its causes so many more issues. No one should disagree that hes pandering, but when you make bewildering statement about people with no connection to true Nazis, being Nazis and dont take it seriously, no one will take you seriously. I think its like the not all men thing, except its not about just dismissing an argument, its about making these people feel even more justified in their shit actions. With a situation like this, it isnt okay to take the chance of misrepresenting the enemy.

Pewdiepie also promotes teen/adult content to children which is bad, especially when you have people like Shapiro or Musk on joking about memes and stupid shit. However you dont see these people being this active about fucking Jake Paul who has done way more in the way of devaluing morality, decency in youth. Just like Shapiro and other bigots, these Breadtube people are dehumanizing anyone they consider a Nazi by refusing to acknowledge their real ideologies and intentions and diminish the real life actions of Nazis.

I see it like saying that either Nazis arent murderers, and they should only be punched, or Ben Shapiro should be murdered for not be a murderer, because we consider him a Nazi. Youre either delegitimizing Real Nazis or calling for the murder or people with awful ideas which I support neither.

But with that, Ill make it clear that I dont like Pewdiepie and understand hes playing his audience in his favor just like any other pop culture celebrity asshole. What Im saying isnt anything about giving it any easier to pewdiepie, its for these breadtube types to quit lying and ruining the argument about something thats actually important, and to actually put this sort of effort onto people with more direct impact on the matter. Its a bizarre self sabotage, closes any gates for redemption, and now isnt the time for making mistakes. If pew and these people were truly Nazis, monsters like they say they are, wed start riots to systematically round them up and have them executed, but I disagree with that.

Also I think these people are going to act regardless of support. I actually think the shooter was acting in reaction to lack of true support (which is my personal issue with this, the instant dismissal of anyone who says racist shit instead of attempting to give them a chance and help them think through their ideas). A person like this would have done it without Hypeman Shapiro. Thats why I posted the Cruz video. Like Cruz, the shooter wrote a manifesto to encourage themselves to do it because they made a decision and acted on it. No one could have forced that or triggered that besides themselves. And if not for the cause of racism, for the cause of chaos or a number of things.
But this is debatable and I really shouldnt have gotten into this because I dont have any ground to speak on the matter and really I was just upset with people misusing the term Nazi against people. I think if I was personally affected by the holocaust Id be furious at the mischaracterization, but I wasnt so who knows.

Thanks for the reply Wesker, hope youre doing well.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: Wesker on March 18, 2019, 11:59:29 PM
Again, the BreadTube people are mostly not calling him a Nazi. I'm not sure what you mean. There's a small portion of people in that H. Bomb thread disagreeing with what Harris had to say, and the post itself has thousands of upvotes at this point. This indicates that, for the most part, they do not think he is a Nazi. They're explicitly agreeing with a post saying that he's not a Nazi. It seems like you're focusing on a minority opinion and blowing it out of proportion.

It isn't so much about dehumanising people like Ben Shapiro but accurately reflecting the evil things they believe. He's fine with muslims being murdered, so long as it isn't being livestreamed by a private citizen. When the Israeli or United States military is killing muslims, he's on board for it wholesale. For the most part, people do not think that Ben Shapiro should be killed. But he is a fascist. He believes firmly in totalitarian military programmes that suppress and kill dissidents, and he's completely on board for the suppression of queer people from the right-wing. He supports the apartheid-esque actions of Israel, and I agree with people like Eli Valley when he likens their treatment of Palestinians to the Nazis' treatment of Jews. In what meaningful way is Ben not a Nazi? The guy is viciously antisemitic, too, and doesn't consider Jews with beliefs different from his to be "good Jews". If he'd been alive during the '30s, he would have been expressing opinions along the lines of "We should not let European Jews into our country! They're filthy and conniving, and they'll ruin this country! They love stealing and living in filth!" Everything I know about him shows me that he buys into racist propaganda shamelessly, and will spread it because he's a fascist cretin with no morals.

On the other end of this, calling out PewDiePie for advertising white nationalist talking points and racist jokes on his account the way people on BreadTube have is not delegitimising real Nazis, either. What the majority of his critics say is that, regardless of what his intentions are, he's promoting people like E;R who are deeply antisemitic, racist, and conspiratorial, and that this opens the door for really poisonous attitudes. And when people got onto him for that, he flippantly responded like he didn't give a shit about the potential damage he was doing. "Woopsies!" was the lousiest and most facetious non-apology I've seen in quite some time, and when he does things like that, do you really expect people to respond to him in good faith? He might not be a Nazi, but you don't have to be one to pave the way for them, and to promote their talking points. People should be careful about who they call a Nazi, but Felix has an audience of millions and promotes awful shit to that audience. That's more relevant to me than a few people on BreadTube using the F-word willy-nilly.

And to follow-up on my point about people like Shapiro creating safe spaces for this guy: It's basically undeniable that these safe atmospheres allow people to feel secure and righteous in what they do. Before he committed the massacre he posted on 8chan. Instead of reporting him, they did nothing. They supported him. He had plenty of support, and now in the wake of his 50 murders you know what people are doing? They're showing him solidarity by sharing his "memes" and expressing admiration because of what he did. The_Donald, 8chan, and /pol/ are filled with people like this. You need to wake up if you don't think that this is relevant. Shit like this sends a signal to future killers: "We will love you if you do what he did, just like he loved the people who came before him". Elliot Rodger received this form of support. Dylann Roof did, too. It's perfectly reasonable to point to their histories on web forums where people stoked their evil intentions and say that this had a contributing effect to the massacres they took part in. People are generally more likely to do things if people they trust convince them to do so. On the flip side of this, there's absolutely no evidence the NZ shooter did this because of a lack of support for his ideas. Bastions of fascism like the ones I've mentioned wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for people banding together under their hatred of anybody who doesn't look like them and making themselves feel good for hating brown people. Shapiro contributes to this constantly. So does Stefan molyneux, and Paul Joseph Watson, and Lauren Southern, and a whole bunch of other racist assholes. If you think that he would have done what he did without being exposed to these safe spaces for racists online, despite all the evidence that he adopted this irony-poisoned racist ideology that is inextricably tied with that culture, I don't think you'll ever see how these things are connected or how people don't just target muslims because they woke up one day and decided to kill them. Propaganda has an effect. It always has had an effect like this. It normalises hatred and justifies violence. This is why when our government kills hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, nobody gives a shit. But when ISIS, born from our deeds, kills a few thousand people in the desert, everybody is suddenly terrified. They want our government to step in again and kill even more people with drone strikes, no matter if they're innocent or guilty. And that's okay, because the propaganda tells them that they deserve to die. That's the sort of propaganda that justifies the murder of Iraqis, under the guise of "protecting western culture". It's what Ben peddled his entire adult life. It's what people like the New Zealand internalised. If you have another explanation for these things, I'd like to hear it, because all terrorism is ideologically motivated. Downplaying the role that the normalisation of hatred against muslims had in the act seems a hundred times more irresponsible than people calling PewDiePie a Nazi for saying antisemitic, racist things and promoting antisemitic racists. I can at least understand why people come to the conclusion that PewDiePie is a Nazi even if I personally disagree with it. I can't understand why people would think the NZ shooter decided all on his own to do these things when there's a lot of evidence to indicate otherwise.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: corduroy on March 19, 2019, 06:26:17 PM
I read the thread and it doesnt matter if they mean it or not. Im saying that defining somebody as a Nazi will never make that person want to stop or rethink what theyre doing, and will never take your arguments about themselves as legitimate because youre lying straight to their face. They know they didnt serve in the third reich. Its self sabotaging and fueling more division and only makes them increasingly defensive about stupid shit theyve done. Im sure this makes Pew feel more validated in what hes done because people are flat out lying about him.
Im upset by this because these are people and ideas I like and agree with, however lying about whos a Nazi is sabotaging everything I believe in and falling for the trap of ignorance.

I know a little about Ben Shaprio, and I dont watch Pewdiepie. I havent had problems with people calling people nazis before, like Tucker Carlson, but now were going as far as to call a dumbfuck youtuber a Nazi, not to mention admit that they dont even mean it. I think that is the line for me, thats where you stop and rethink if what youre doing it fueling the flames. Yes Shapiro is a Nazi. Calling Pew a Nazi gives Shapiro, a Nazi, a reason to suggest anyone calling him a Nazi is false. It wont matter if they believe Pew is a Nazi or not, you've Lied.

I think youre mistaking the effect for the cause. No one spends months on pol then decides to commit mass murder, they go their because they want to do horrible shit anyways. Youre almost proving my point when you say "All it ever does is /normalize/ hate, all it ever does is /justify/ violence." These are violent, fearful, ignorant people who want to act on it any way they can. They will find and make groups to support and lie to themselves and hype themselves up enough to excuse their actions anyway they can. Theyll fantasize and lie about other races to justify their unreasonable violence and ignorance. But theres nothing about 8ch or any other forum that inherently facilitates this. Honestly Google blocking 8ch from search results was an awful idea and allowed everything there to be hidden on the surface. The other sites on the ban list obviously should be brought to the attention of people, but its not the site itself thats the problem. Its the people running it, writing on it and monitoring it. This might sound nitpicky to you but small things like this really matter when people are dying. Banning the site doesnt address the issue of complicit moderators or violent organizers, it just makes them move into darker corners of the internet, with their intentions just as well hidden. Knowing where they harbor lets third parties stay active on their intentions and plans and gives them the ability to counteract sooner. I believe peoples bad ideas need a place to go, so they can grow and learn from them. Of course if its one big circle jerk, nothings getting accomplished in terms of combating their ideology. You think you have to get rid of the site and the people and brush it all under the rug when in reality to have to encounter it and participate. Show them you actually care, break up the circle jerk and show them their numbers dont add up.

Suffocating the problem isnt how it works. Addressing it and taking action to solve the problem at its core, ignorance, is how you resolve it. You dont misrepresent the problem, you dont aggrandize people who arent as bad as the people actually promoting the violence. Attempting to abolishing the place where their hate resides has absolutely never worked. Propaganda, like you said, is used to excuse violence not create it. Id argue its the ignorance of the propaganda, not the propaganda itself, that makes them believe it.

I just wanted to hear people opinions on this. Jareds tweets and likes have been showing up on my twitter a lot more so if hes around and has any thoughts, or anyone else, please share.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: Wesker on March 19, 2019, 09:38:11 PM
If you read the thread, then surely you must know that most of those people aren't calling PewDiePie a Nazi, right? You're just doubling down on your original point instead of acknowledging that the majority of those people agreed with a man who explicitly said that Felix is not a Nazi. You're focusing on a minority and implying that the majority of people there called him a Nazi when they didn't.

As for "serving in the third reich": You're being pedantic about the way "Nazi" is used to refer to Neo-Nazis. And Neo-Nazis didn't have to have served in the third reich in order to believe the things they do. I agree with you that facilitating change via discussion is important if we want to keep people from being radicalised, and calling people Nazis isn't always the best approach, but which people are you okay with being called Nazis? Do they have to literally be surviving members of World War 2's German military in order for that label to have any weight to it?

People lie about others all the time, and it's never right. But PewDiePie has already made it really obvious over the last few years that he doesn't care if the media are telling the truth or not in regards to things he's said or done. He'll paint them as liars and be validated by his massive audience who will stand by him no matter what. Only a narcissist could be called out for the things he's done and not question his own actions whatsoever. Yes, there are people calling him a Nazi. And I think that they're overreacting. But the majority of his critics do not think this, and even the ones who do think this have a basis for calling him one in the form of the antisemitism and racism he's promoted. It's not baseless. It's formed on recognising a pattern of behaviour and understanding that Nazis dog-whistle to one another all the time to avoid being publicly called out for it. People should be more specific and rational when criticising PewDiePie or any person who - intentionally or not - shares white nationalist talking points, but it's not for nothing that he's been hit with these accusations.

And as a person who has seen his friends radicalised through 4chan: You're wrong when you talk about /pol/. People who go to /pol/ in the first place might have reactionary beliefs, but the process of reinforcing those beliefs is what leads to radicalisation. When you live in a rural town with reactionary, insular folks as I have my entire life, you generally have two pathways in regards to people having their beliefs radicalised by people on the internet. Path 1: You're confronted with facts that go against what you initially believed and internalise them. Path 2: Your ignorance is encouraged, your hatred is validated, and you're given even more misinformation in the spirit of making you more radical. This is what happened to me for a while, it's what happened to some of my friends, and it's what happens to people in general when they visit extremist websites like Stormfront. They didn't think that the Jews ran the media before this happened. In fact, one of them was a hardcore Zionist, which is its own problem, but I want to emphasise that people don't just come up with these ideas on their own - separate and divorced from everybody else - and act on them. This makes it seem like you don't understand that humans are social creatures whose ideologies are shaped by the people they interact with.

I agree with you when you say that a person's bad beliefs leads them to these places to begin with. But the process of reinforcing those beliefs until they form the core of a person's identity is a years-long process, and the insular townsfolk I grew up around wouldn't explicitly support neo-Nazis and fascism without being exposed to their propaganda and rhetoric online. Generally, they're just ignorant and afraid of outsiders, but that ignorance and xenophobia is morphed into an ideologically driven hatred.

Things like the Columbine or Virginia Tech shooting are different, and I'm not arguing that all terrorist attacks are the result of online radicalisation, but to suggest that all terror attacks would occur regardless of these spaces for radicalisation is a stretch, especially when you can clearly see patterns that lead people from point A to point B. If you think that the normalisation and justification of violence don't lead people to thinking that it's morally righteous or acceptable to commit it, then you're completely misunderstanding why the normalisation and justification are bad to begin with. I can't really grasp your ideology here. Do you think that these things being perceived as normal or justifiable has no effect on the way people carry out violence? What I said doesn't prove your point, unless your point is that violence arises from systems which promote it as good.

What's your explanation for where this hatred comes from when you say that it's all isolated incidents of individuals committing violence? Because even most people who fear outsiders don't think about killing them regularly. That's the process of indoctrination doing that. Bitter, angry, afraid people do wreckless shit, but directing that towards a group and having them believe that the group in question is responsible for all their problems is not something individuals have the capacity to do on their own, generally.

I think Google blacklisting 8chan was the right move because it makes it harder for people to find it, and it makes it more difficult for people to communicate their ideas with one another and encourage one another to share child pornography, hate speech, and calls for violence. With the logic you're laying out, no website is inherently a problem. Stormfront is not a problem. Child porn sites are not problems. It's only the people who run those sites and post on them that are the problem. It's not a framing device that really changes the way we think about websites.

Additionally, this concept of "Exposing fascism to sunlight is the best cure" is complete bullshit. Charlottesville proved that. They were exposed to sunlight, and it got somebody killed. This should have been one of the many lessons from Charlottesville. Thankfully a lot of the Nazis and fascists and white nationalists who showed up at that rally have been forced to go underground after being revealed for what they were, but the idea that they should be given the right to have a platform for their ideas is ridiculous.

I want to reiterate that forcing these people into hidden dark corners makes it harder for their message to get out there. Allowing them huge platforms makes it easier for their messages to be spread and find new voices. They're going to plan what they will either way, but their movements grow larger when they have more media presence and more people can find them easier. That's why deplatforming them works, and why people have to put in more effort to meet when they aren't given these easy avenues to share their ideas. If they have to put in more work to organise, they're less likely to be effective. Does this sound intuitive to you?

Also, I haven't kept up with Jared, but I do see that he liked Tim Pool's post about Chelsea Clinton, which makes me think I'd disagree with him about that issue and many others in regards to the New Zealand shooting. Chelsea Clinton wasn't speaking out against bigotry. She smeared a muslim woman as somebody who spread antisemitism solely because that woman (Ilhan Omar) was critical of Israel. She should know that muslims get accused of hating Jews all the time, and her association of Ilhan with antisemitism is based in racist perceptions of muslims in this country. So I think Tim Pool was completely wrong about that issue, and just generally wrong about most things.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: corduroy on March 19, 2019, 09:45:27 PM
If you read the thread, then surely you must know that most of those people aren't calling PewDiePie a Nazi, right? You're just doubling down on your original point instead of acknowledging that the majority of those people agreed with a man who explicitly said that Felix is not a Nazi. You're focusing on a minority and implying that the majority of people there called him a Nazi when they didn't.

Why would you write this again? Are you not reading what I wrote or just trolling me?

I read the thread and it doesnt matter if they mean it or not. Im saying that defining somebody as a Nazi will never make that person want to stop or rethink what theyre doing, and will never take your arguments about themselves as legitimate because youre lying straight to their face. They know they didnt serve in the third reich. Its self sabotaging and fueling more division and only makes them increasingly defensive about stupid shit theyve done. Im sure this makes Pew feel more validated in what hes done because people are flat out lying about him.
Title: Re: pewdiepie
Post by: Wesker on March 20, 2019, 01:43:32 AM
I wrote it because you're repeatedly implying that they're calling him a Nazi when they aren't. I'm not talking about intent or if they "mean" it. I'm stating that most of those people are simply not calling him a Nazi. And the minority of those who are calling him a Nazi have ideological reasons and evidence for doing so. You're trying to paint them as irrational liars who are reinforcing the reactionary views of people when I don't think that's really true.

I agree don't call PewDiePie a Nazi because it's not helpful. But it's also not helpful to exaggerate how many people are doing that.